Intro:

Hey friend and welcome to the trend report podcast. I'm glad you're joining me today For what I know is going to be a really fun and interesting conversation with my guest today, Jen Levisen. Jen is the director of communications at Mindful Materials as well as a columnist for Office Insights, which is a weekly published industry magazine. Lots of places to check Jen out. I'm Sid Meadows and I'm a business leader and coach and a consultant and a longtime student of the office furniture industry, and in this conversation we like to have powerful industry leaders share their insights with you that will help make an impact in your business and in our industry. So let's dive in to today's conversation.

Sid:

So, Jen, first question why are you so passionate about sustainability?

Jen:

I would say it's equal parts sustainability, and then also commercial design. I'll start with sustainability, though, and the work that sustainability certifications and organizations are doing in this space is literally life changing. And you talk about wanting. You know I have little kids. You want to save the planet, save the world, and this work is doing that, and its impacts on not only the environment, but on ourselves and our coworkers and our spaces and our communities are incredible once you understand them, and so I think I was drawn to the sustainability side of commercial design, because of its life changing impacts and the potential that it has on our world.

And then I just and I have to add, I didn't ask, but I have to add I was drawn to commercial design because of I mean I would be hard pressed to talk about another industry that has the impact that commercial design does. I mean, you think about how spaces make people feel, how spaces and communities feel, and it's just incredible the power that that A&D and that manufacturers have on the world around us and it just it gives me goosebumps to think about, and so to be able to marry design and sustainability is like a dream come true, you know, from a community, from my standpoint and communication.

Sid:

So I love that and it's always interesting to understand how people got into our industry. So how did you get into the commercial design office furniture industry?

Jen:

No, definitely so. My background is in communications and marketing and I am very proud to call myself a writer. I started in communications and healthcare. I worked for Mayo Clinic for about 10 years and and really enjoyed what I did. But after about 10 years, just kind of excited and ready for a new adventure, and so I joined a small marketing and branding agency in my hometown and that agency morphed into what what is mortar, which was a commercial design inspiration platform. We were acquired by EcoMeaties in 2022.

And so it was those six, seven years with mortar that really I mean it was like jumping into the deep end of the pool, of course, but it was. That was kind of my foray into commercial design, into into, you know, commercial office furniture, things like that, and so I have really spent the last six years learning about the industry. I kind of backed my way in awkwardly at some point, but I used individuals like yourself, like Rob Kirkbride, to kind of really educate myself on the space and you know who's who in the language that was used, and so I don't know, it just really stuck, it really stuck. And so, yeah, I really I really enjoy it and I honestly like the impact that this industry and these people have just blows my mind and it's just, it's just so exciting.

Sid: 

Well, you said something that is so true, which is we have our own language.

We have our own terminology that sometimes I mean after 30 years or so, I'm still learning what some of those things mean. But I'm going to backtrack just a minute. That's actually how we met when you were at Mortar because Abby, who was the CEO of Mortar at the time, was actually on the podcast way back in like 2021, I believe and that's actually how we met doing some joint marketing. And then it's just like how, how you meet people and how your paths cross. And now here you are at Mindful Materials and are going to share with us today all about Mindful Materials. So let's just go right ahead and ask the direct question what is Mindful Materials?

Jen: 

You know. So Mindful Materials is a nonprofit organization. We achieved our nonprofit status in 2022. And we are. We are working to help people understand the sustainability, impacts and sustainability information of the of the materials and the products that they are sourcing and specifying and creating, and so we are often kind of referred to as the UN of Sustainable Materials, because we are not a certification. We are not a certifying body, but we are working to really bring people together and to educate them on the impact of the materials that they have and to really push forward the idea of a holistic, a holistic sustainability. So we're not focused on one impact area, we're really focused on all of them and the power of achieving kind of alignment in the same language and getting people to understand the impacts of the materials. So let's.

Sid: 

Can you define the word material, because when I hear you say that, I immediately think about fabric or upholstery. Is it just that, or is it beyond what I think of as material?

Jen:

I would say it is that, and then it's the ingredients that make that material up as well, okay, and so what are the key things that you're looking for?

Sid: 

or a product or a material to be classified as a mindful material, like what's the criteria there that you're searching for?

Jen:

Well, so we are not a certification and we're not labeling things as mindful materials, but we do Yep, but we do. We do work with a variety of certifying bodies. So if you look at, you know, green Guard, pratle to Pratle, just HPDs, all of those we work with those entities to help people understand the impacts of those materials and so mindful materials I think in 2021, 2022, launched what they call the Common Materials Framework.

Jen: 

And that is kind of an education organizing system to understand the materials, because, for instance, I just described a sustainable material very differently than you might have or that our colleague might, and so it's hard to understand the materials that you're working with and the impacts they have if we're all describing them a little differently. And all of those certifications I mentioned are wonderful, but they all are looking at slightly different things. And so how do we get all of our industry whether they've been in this space forever or they're just graduating or they're just getting started how do we get them to understand the materials that they're specifying and sourcing and the sustainability information within those materials? And so the Common Materials Framework is a way to kind of align and unify the language to get people to understand what they're working with.

Sid:

Sure. So it's interesting and I appreciate you describing the Common Materials Framework, because I am a seller and a leader, right, and there's a lot of things I don't understand as I look and this past week I have been looking at vinyls is what I refer to them? Because I'm an old guy? That's not how they're referred to anymore, right, Like 100% polyurethane is a term that's used when you search on fabric sites and things of that nature, and it's just been interesting to me to understand like I look at the sustainability information or the material makeup of a certain fabric. I fully don't understand what all that means. So you're trying to take in this Common Materials Framework and break it down so that we all understand what it means when it has 25% this, 10% this and 85% that or whatever it might be.

Jen:

Yeah, no, exactly like we're not here to tell you what is considered a good product or a sustainable product, but we are here rather to kind of establish that common language and that common framework to help evaluate products and to work with the certifying bodies, to work with the tech platform to ensure that that sustainability information is flowing into different places.

Because one of the other issues on your end is like where do you access this information and how do you know it's current, how do you know it's like data quality? And so we're really working to be that kind of vener to get that information into the hands of the individuals who are making those decisions.

Sid:

Great OK. Sustainability is a huge topic in our industry as an industry as a whole. We utilize a lot of the world's natural resources in the production of our product. Statistics indicate that we also take up about 25% of the landfills with waste or throwing products away, and there's a lot of people addressing that, a lot of big movements towards stopping that right, and so I appreciate understanding a different side of it.

Jen:

That will help all of us make better decisions so that we can be better to the environment and help to protect the environment for our children and their children and their children's children, and so forth and so on 100%, and I think that's where that's where it's so important for I think that's what really drew me to the work at Mindful Materials is that convening, because it does take all of us aligning around a common ass and aligning around this common language to move us forward. Because it takes it takes entities like universities, it takes entities like design firms, it takes those manufacturers, it takes groups like what they're doing, that Comico Green, like what they're doing at reseat, on the other end of the product creation, to be working in the same direction and to be moving in that same direction. Because, I mean, we do have, like the built environment has such a large impact on the world around us and so we really all have to be kind of working together and moving in the right direction to have that kind of foundational impact.

Sid:

Totally agree with you. And you mentioned Comeco Green. For those of you that are frequent listener to the podcast, you know that Diane Maurata was guest number on the show, guest number 129. So the end of the season of 2023 and we talked about Comico Green and what they're doing and the impact they're having, and love following along and watching how she's making an impact, along with other people like Brandi Suze at reseat and so many people really working to try to address waste and sustainability and reuse of product. And I want to go back again and one of the things we didn't ask or didn't talk about was how did mindful materials get started?

Jen:

Oh, my goodness. So we are going to be actually celebrating our 10th anniversary in 2024. Thank you, yeah, so stay tuned for a lot of fun anniversary conversations and interviews. But so we were founded in 2014 by HKS that and firm and it was the Chicago based firm that did because they were really looking for an internal labeling system so that their teams could understand the materials and the products that they were sourcing and specifying. And it just it took off like wildfire and it really is like even just within 12 months of that effort really kind of became more of a collaborative so that other firms could start to utilize that information, could start to implement that in their own libraries.

And then in 2017, kind of a cloud based library was launched. So people in the industry used to refer to the mindful materials library. It was a website that you could go on and search for those mindful materials, even that ultimate, even though ultimately that wasn't what we were doing. It was we were kind of collecting and curating what would be considered a mindful material, so a library of sustainable materials. And so then that launched that cloud based library launched in 2017 and then over the next two years are volunteer groups. So we have working in engagement groups on the manufacturer side, on the A&D side, they're really kind of working to bring more individuals into the fold, bring more firms into the fold, get people on the same page with how we're talking about things.

And then, of course, in 2019, a&d materials pledge was launched and that really the five buckets that they're utilizing within that pledge, is really the foundation of the common materials framework. So that's kind of been our trajectory. So you know, like those engagement groups launched in, I think, 2019, the pledges really took off around the pandemic, things like that Sorry to bring that up, common materials framework launched in 2022. We became a nonprofit. So that's kind of really our trajectory. But it's just interesting to me because all of this is volunteer base. Like I'm not going to remember off the top of my head the year that are that Annie Bevan became our CEO, but it was all volunteer base, volunteer led up until then, and that just blows my mind Like it's just incredible.

Sid:

I think it shows two things. It shows the importance of what you're doing, by the volunteers that were getting involved to help push the concept forward right, and I also think that you're highlighting how something can start as an idea and, through grassroots and hard work and volunteers, turn into something that is truly having an impact in our industry and helping us understand better how to be mindful when we specify products and including the materials that we use 100% and I would say to the community that we have built at Mindful Materials.

Jen:

It was something that drew me in, even working at Mortar and EcoMedia, and for me I'm just so incredibly proud to be a part of. I mean, these individuals are passionate, they're dedicated, they're giving their time and they're really, really building that momentum to continue us moving forward.

Sid:

That's awesome. So you also have something and I think you may have referenced it briefly there that you refer to as forum groups. So what are forum groups and how do they work?

Jen:

Yes, no, no, no. So the forums are the Mindful Materials forums are a relatively new initiative for us. We launched them in well, they kind of formed in March of 2023. They were publicly launched in July. We just wrapped our first year and they are really so.

We have three catalyst forums. We have an owner's forum, we have our A&D forum, aec forum excuse me and then we have our manufacturers forum, and their each forum is around 10 to 15 different companies and firms within their, within their sectors, and they're really leaders in that space who are leading this sustainability conversation, the sustainable materials conversation, and wanting to ensure that their sectors, their areas of operation, are really moving forward and are keeping these different elements of sustainability at the forefront. So you know how they're from the owner's side, how their businesses are run, how they're purchasing property, who they're working with, ensuring that the teams that they're working with are adhering to the sustainability kind of plans and desires that their companies have.

On the AEC side, that they're procuring those materials, that they're building in time on the front end of projects to be able to pay attention to these things, and then the manufacturer side, that they are creating products and building products within those specifications too, and so it's been interesting to bring the power of the forums is bringing these three groups together, and our first entire year was really working on aligning around a common ask that we are really looking for a connected data ecosystem that can ensure that data of quality and quantity can flow to the tools, and by data I mean sustainability data so that you have access to like the EPD information you have access to, the just information that you have access to, that it can flow into the workflow tools that these teams are already using.

We don't need to create a brand new tool and sign on for these people to use. We need something that can push information out to the tools are already using. And then we need our manufacturers who are doing this work. That I mean it's all really it's expensive, time consuming work, and we need those manufacturers to see the benefit of this output that they're doing. We want to ensure that they can see that and in Texas, or you know, contractor in Oklahoma is utilizing the materials that they're spending the time creating. So it's that kind of that open flow of communication, and so it was getting these three groups to align around this ask that we want this connected Data ecosystem, and so that was the. That was the work that we did in our first year, and it sounds crazy, sorry no, I love it, I love it but it sounds crazy to spend a whole year aligning around to ask.

But it's the big foundational ground, ground breaking work and so and it takes a lot of effort to move all of these parts forward. I mean we're working with, you know, we're working with the Google's and the harbors and all of these entities. You know, shaw contracts, the part of the time human scale, and so it just takes a lot to move all of these groups forward.

Sid: 

Well, absolutely, it does. So if you're watching on YouTube, you watch chin. Just make a hand signal of a circle, right, and which is great if you're listening she was doing hand signals of a circle as she was talking about this.

Jen:

I forgot about the YouTube.

Sid:

No, no, no, no, it's great. I actually drew a circle when you were. I wrote down the three groups and I drew if you can see it there, I drew a circle.

So great minds were thinking alike around that because, having been in the furniture industry for a really long time and having watched this journey, but also been on the side of competing and filling out bids and complying with specifications and documentation, all that up been very, very interesting. So one thing that I appreciate the most is that you brought all three pillars of people into the conversation. You brought the end user into the conversation. You mentioned Google, you brought the AEC community so architect, engineering and construction into the conversation and then you brought the manufacturers who are actually producing the product into that conversation so that we could find some common ground and commonality.

Because it's great I feel like I'm about to give my soapbox here for a second it's great to say that this is required. I'm gonna use something I don't know a lot about, right, some is gonna use as example. It's great to say that the product must fit the criteria of cradle to cradle, when our manufacturers aren't there yet and design firm is saying you have to meet this criteria. Better manufacturers aren't there yet, and then every so many people get put out in, limits the product selection and limits the competitive nature for the customer to actually get you know a the right product at the right price, all those kinds of things. So what I think is important about this is not just getting on the same page, but also giving us the opportunities To meet the requirements before they become, as part of the bid. If you will, are part of the specifications as a requirement. You gotta give us the opportunity to understand what it means. How do we do it so that we can then indeed reply to it?

Jen:

Yeah, no, most definitely. And that's really the power of these groups coming together and kind of, you know, opening the doors and being able to kind of, you know, just be honest and share Some of those pain points that they're experiencing and how we can kind of come together to collectively move forward. And that's one of the, like I said, that's one of the really exciting parts about the forums, and we're going to be releasing, so, the output of your one of the forums we are building into what we're calling a material playbook Great. So that will be released later this spring and it really it's the goal of the playbook. The first iteration. It meant to be a living, breathing document that grows as our knowledge grows.

But the goal is to take the work that those forums are doing and allow others in their spaces to be able to do this work as well. So how can we bring additional owners into the fold? How can we bring more design firms in the fold? How can we bring more manufacturers in the fold? Because it's sharing those best practices, it's sharing resources, it's just sharing the power of the collective to kind of move that needle forward. And so we're really excited for that output and your two of the forums are welcoming some additional members into each group. Your two starts in April, so we're really, really excited about that work.

Sid: 

So I love the idea of the material playbook. It's a guide to share with manufacturers and specifiers. What is what you've been doing? Here's the things we recommend, right? So I'm curious is this a free resource or is it a paid resource? Is a free?

Jen: 

It's a free resource. I mean Mindful materials is the nonprofit and we and we are incredibly proud about the work and the connections that we are able to make in this industry and it does take. I mean we have members and we are so grateful for those, were grateful for our members, were grateful for our sponsors and it's their donations, through those memberships and sponsorships, that really allow us to do the work that we do. But the resources that we're building are free and accessible. Like we will want your name, we will want your email address because that helps us with the education purposes, but no, they're free.

Sid: 

OK. Well, I ask because nonprofits still need money in order to do the good deed and the good work that they're doing right, and that's the darkest thing. 

It just means you're giving it all back and you're putting it all back into your resources and the organization is actually not making a profit, but you have employees that have to be paid and benefits and all these kinds of things. So it is, and I would actually have been OK if you said it would be would payed. I would have bought it right, because I think the work that you're doing is important and my listeners would likely agree with me. The work that you're doing is important and we all need to continue to learn and grow around this particular topic. So let me ask you who is this for? Who are the people that would go to the website and use the platform, maybe join one of your working groups? Who's the target person that you want out there, that you want? As you said earlier, I want your name and email address. Who are those people?

Jen:

Oh goodness, I would be anyone who, anyone who provides services to the built environment. So we're really looking at commercial design, commercial manufacturing. But it's not just for those who have been in the space for 20 years and are kind of knowing that, know and are educating others. It's for everyone from that end, the opposite end of the spectrum, who is just interested or wanting to learn more, or who heard something about OK, how, what is holistic material health mean? Or how do I know that I am even looking to specify a couch that isn't going to disintegrate in a few years. You know, it's just, it's like the whole end of the spectrum. And I think that's another really great thing about the mindful materials community One of our board members, nora Rizzo.

She she works with the design Grace Farms and the design for freedom movement.

I remember I heard a presentation from her a few years ago and she's made a comment that, like once you know, you can't know something, and that just stuck with me because, like once you know about the impacts of the products you're using, the materials that are in those products, it's hard to ignore, especially with the collective power. You know that this, this industry and these people have, and so it really anybody who is interested in this work, who is doing this work, can come to the mindful materials website and join the community and really start to find some like minded people. Because one of the things my colleague, laurel Hizinski, says all the time is that often in these firms are at these companies. She's a practicing architect and one of the things she's always said is oftentimes these are like individuals, kind of on an island unto themselves in these firms and they're just like doing the good work and they're trying and it's like come in and tap into a whole network of people who are also doing this work and you're not alone.

Sid:

That's great. So we will be sure that in the show notes is the link to the website, as well as a link to join the newsletter and to receive updates about what mindful material is doing.

So the short answer is mindful materials is for anybody within the ecosystem of design, whether you're a customer that purchases product, a specifier, a student, someone's in construction, a furniture manufacturer, a furniture seller, a distributor, anybody within our ecosystem. What they're learning and what they're sharing is for you. So, everyone listening today, this is for you. Go sign up at mindful materials and learn more about what this organization and what this team is doing, because I think it's really fantastic.

Jen: 

Awesome. No, thank you. You can go on to our website. You can sign up for our newsletter. There's no cost to that. We have a variety of membership opportunities on both the A&D and the manufacturing side. We can also help, supplement and support if the cost is prohibitive at all.

Sid: 

Sure.

Jen: 

It's just a really great way to kind of get into the fold and start to learn different things. You can follow us on Instagram and LinkedIn as well, so we'll put all of those in the show notes.

Sid:

So I've really enjoyed learning about mindful materials, and I know that my audience has too, because I get a lot of messages about hey, Sid, could you ask more sustainability questions when manufacturers are on? Can we learn more about this? We learn, and I love that feedback. So if you have any feedback, you know where to go. You can email me. You can go to the website and leave a message. You can go to LinkedIn. Send me a message. Instagram I don't care, just send me a message. Right, if you have my phone number, you can text me. That's all good too, but I want to the last couple of minutes here.

I want to ask about Jen. Let's learn about you a little bit. So you said you guys should see your face. She's like oh no, we're going to talk about me. So you said you were a writer and I'm always really interested. Like, how did you become a writer? And I'm going to tell you why I'm asking that question. When Rob Kirkbride asked me to write for then the Business Affirmative Magazine, I'm like do what you want me to write. I don't know how to write. Like, what do you mean you want me to write? Of course, the only answer was yes, I will write a column for you, rob, but it took me probably like three or four months to actually understand what writing meant and how to find my voice and how to write meaningful and impactful, and I love it now. But how did you become a writer? What was the spark there for you?

Jen: 

No. So when I was a little girl I used to watch like I'd watch TV and movies with my dad and one of the ones that I fell in love with was the Superman series and I just became enamored with Lois Lane and the idea of, you know, writing for a newspaper, and so journalism was really my foray into writing and it became a way that I could learn about things and meet new people and educate others, and so started in journalism and then I moved into marketing communications and was able to do that on a health scale and then, through more than eco meetings, do it on the commercial design side, and so it's just been this awesome way to learn and learn new things, meet new people and educate and so. But it's been interesting. So I started my column with Office Insight last year.

I had I was leaving my position at Mordernico meetings and I reached out to Rob really just to thank him because I met him once or twice but had really used his writing as a way to educate myself and I just I wanted him to know that and he turned around and offered me a column and I mean my job probably hit the floor because I built a career writing about what other people are doing and what other people are thinking, but no one's really ever asked me to write what I think about things, and I was so. Obviously you don't say no to Rob, or?

Sid:

the opportunity. Rob, I hope you're not missing this. Somebody's gonna say no to you one day. Buddy, you're right, you don't say no to Rob Kirkbride.

Jen: 

No, and it's just, it's just been one of the greatest gifts, and I mean it's been fun to do, but it's just been such an amazing gift to be able to articulate my own thoughts on a topic that I've become very interested in. So, like I said, it's just been such a great gift. But I don't know. I just I love writing, I love being able to express what others are doing in an interesting way, and it's just been just something I love. But I blame my dad and Lois Lane.

Sid: 

I love that. I love that. So is your column about sustainability.

Jen: 

No, it's, I will say, and one of the only piece Rob doesn't give a ton of feedback even when you, even when you ask for it.

But the only piece of feedback he's given me is like to write more about the industry in the space. And and that's always and it's been a struggle of mine because, like I'm not a designer, I'm not an architect, don't work for a manufacturer, and so it's been like how can I, from my communications and marketing seat, with such a love for the work that everyone is doing, how can I tell stories, what can I talk about? And so it's been kind of interesting to kind of to navigate that I have been able to write about mindful material twice now. But I've also talked about, you know, just like how to find your voice in a space and how to, how to kind of strengthen yourself. So I'm really interested to see where it goes this year.

Sid:

So, yeah, well, yeah, absolutely so, we're. If you're not a subscriber to Office Insights Magazine, we will drop a link in the show notes for you to sign up to receive that. We'll also include the link for you to sign up for their viewpoint magazine, which is the magazine that I write for every month. That's a monthly magazine. Office Insights is a weekly magazine, so we'll put the link for both of those so you can tune into my writings. I write more about professional development and growth related things, though I try to tie it into the topic of the month for the magazine. So it is a lot of fun. I really enjoy it. And now, jen, if you're a writer, I would assume that you're a reader. So I have two questions Are you a reader of books or a listener? Are you on a Kindle, like? Tell me how you consume books. Assume you're a reader.

Jen: 

Yes, no. I am a voracious reader and I do all three, so I there is nothing better than holding a book in my hand.

Sid:

Yes.

Jen: 

And I love bookstores as much as I love the public library. Yes, I do have a Kindle. This is easy and I have started to look. My husband commutes for his role as a teacher. He commutes, and so he started to list, listen to books on tape, and so I've done that occasionally. But there is really nothing better than holding a physical book in your hand, and the bigger the better.

Sid: 

I gotta tell you I 100% agree with that. Even if I decide to listen to the book, I buy it because I want the book. And there's like a whole book, a full of books here. There's like the ones. You can't see it, but right back there there's a whole stack of books that I'm currently in the process of reading. So what are you reading now?

Jen: 

Well, I just finished a book called the Island of Sea Women, and so I've been pushing myself. So when I'm not reading, I've been pushing myself to read things that I would not normally be drawn to. That kind of pushed me out of my comfort zone, and so this was a book club recommendation and it's just, it's a historical fiction about an island. It's basically an island of women, I think, off the coast of Japan, and there are, it's like a matriarchal society, so the women are the ones that are doing the work and then to bring in the income in, and the husbands are the ones to take care of their children and the family. And so then you talk about World War Two and the impacts of that, and it really goes spans a few different decades and some of the horrific violence that happened, and it's just been kind of interesting. So, and I have also been pushing myself to read more for pleasure. So that's what I've been. I just finished that last night. I was very proud of myself.

Sid: 

Congratulations. It's really hard to read. It's a complete book, right, Like you like oh my gosh. Well, people laugh at me, but I usually have three going at the same time and I love to.

Jen:

You cheat on your books.

Sid: 

I do, I do cheat, I mean, but sometimes I just got to like take a break, right. Sure, because I'm guilty of this. I am a huge consumer of professional development content and anything that helps, anything that talks about leadership or growth or sales or, you know, mindset I mean. I love consuming that. But there are times I have to say to myself okay, you're overcontenting yourself, take a break and read something mindless. Right Is like a like. I love David Balducci and any of his books and every time I see one.

Jen:

Yeah, what are you? What are you reading now?

Sid: 

Oh gosh, so I'm I'm finishing the book. The Genius Spark If you listen to an episode 131 is with me and Rex and we talk about going through the genius part process. I did all that live and then we're doing a part two really soon, so I'm finishing that book. I have to look at the other one that just got a John Lee Dumas book I haven't opened yet but it's over there. And then I'm reading a book about.

I'm very interested in real estate investing, so I've started consuming real estate investing content because I want to learn about it and it has to do with my wife and I bought an investment property last year for my daughter to live in, and so I was like this is really interesting, let me learn more about this. So I bought a book called the 30 Day Stay and I'm almost finished with that one. So I got professional development, growth, educational and learning and I had been looking for a mindless book to read. There's probably three or four of my shelf here that I have forgotten, that are there that I could probably open. Very fun.

Jen: 

Very fun. You should do book reviews.

Sid: 

So I have done a couple of book reviews. I get encouraged a lot to do book reviews on TikTok and the ones that I've done on TikTok actually do really well. I do have a book over here. People laugh at me. I take notes, yeah, when I like. Sometimes I'll just open up a Google Doc and start typing as I'm listening to the book.

Jen: 

Oh, I've got a whole note like note on my phone and then the best part is like that could be fodder for other columns.

Sid: 

Yes, oh, absolutely See, we're thinking so. I have this book that I read about a year and a half ago. I have a whole bunch of notes on it. I actually got to interview the author of the book in a book club that I was doing at the time, and the title of the book is Love Yourself, like your Life Depends On, with Kamal Ravikant. It is an amazing book about his journey of going from the depths of despair, literally being homeless, to being a world renowned publisher, author, speaker, and it's all about love yourself and why you have to love yourself first.

Jen: 

I'll drop a link the name is on the video you have to be able to go check it out.

Sid:

Love yourself like your life depends on it.

Jen: 

So if you follow me on TikTok, I'm not just a creator, I'm not on TikTok.

Sid: 

I've done like 10 videos on TikTok, so but, I, keep getting encouraged to do more on TikTok I love it. I'm a huge consumer of TikTok. So, Jen, what a pleasure it has been to talk to you about mindful materials Also, just to get to know you a little bit.

Thank you Because our industry is about the people that work in it, and I'm so glad you are part of our industry. I'm really pleased and, honestly, the work that you guys are doing is amazing. It's having a positive impact on what we do as an industry. So thank you all for helping to move our industry forward in a very important topic in a very important area. So thank you.

Jen:

No, thank you. I'm so proud to be a part of it.

Sid: 

So, Jen, if our community would like to get in touch with you, what is the best way for them to do that?

Jen: 

Yeah, email is great. I'm on LinkedIn, I'm on Instagram, I am behind all of my mindful materials social media so you can reach out there too. But no, please, please reach out. I'd love to connect.

Sid: 

We will drop all of that information in the show notes, so you have the LinkedIn, Instagram as well as Jen's email address. If you do reach out to her and connect with her, please let her know that you heard her here on the Trend Report and I appreciate all of you listening in today.

Outro:

If you haven't had the opportunity to leave us a rating and review, head over to Apple Podcasts. Leave us a rating and review. We want to know what you think about the show, what you're learning, and we appreciate each and every one of you joining us today. Go out there and make today great. We'll see you again soon. Take care everyone.