Intro: 

Hey friend and welcome to the Trend Report. I'm Sid Meadows and I'm a business leader, coach and consultant and a longtime student of the office furniture industry, and in this podcast we have powerful conversations with industry leaders, innovators and others that are making an impact in their business and our industry. My goal is simple to provide you with valuable insights, information, resources and tools to help you grow your business grow and help move our industry forward. So let's dive into today's conversation.

Sid:

I'm really excited to welcome I'm just going to say it the man, the myth and the legend to the Trend Report, the one and only I feel like I need a drum roll Doug Shapiro, the Vice President of Sales for JSI. Hey, Doug, how are you?

Doug: 

Thank you, Sid. It is a real honor to be here with you. I've followed you and your career and you said man myth to legend. You took my line. That's what I was going to use on you.

Sid: 

Yeah, myth is probably for me, so the people listening need to understand. This is like the third or fourth time that we have tried to do this. Life has happened. Things happened Last time it was the internet and just for a funny, as we're starting this one, the internet goes out on my computer for like two minutes, so Doug and I were having a really good laugh about. Are we meant to actually record this?

Doug:  

Yeah, you know, the good thing is when you're dealing with another podcaster, there's a lot of forgiveness, a lot of grace that's given because to do what you do, Sid, is not easy.

Sid: 

Well, I really do enjoy it. I never thought I mean the listeners have heard me say this before, but it's always been it'd been something that was on my list to do for a really long time. And then, in 2020, I'm like, well, what the heck are you waiting for now? Right? So I went out and did it and I had no real concept of that it would take a life of its own. I mean, this is season six. You are episode 151. I think I should know that Wow, and like it just took a life of its own. But it's a lot of fun.

Sid: 

I get to talk to amazing people like you. I mean to meet a lot of people and I get to share hopefully you know insights that help people. Like, I tell people all the time if I make you just a little bit mad, that's actually good. That means I'm challenging you to think differently about something I like. That Enough about me. Let's talk about you, because lots of stuff going on with you, but I want to talk first. Before we talk about what it is you do today, I want to talk a little bit about Doug. Like I want to get behind the scenes with Doug. So how did you get into the furniture industry, cause you've been what? 20 something years.

Doug: 

Yes, yeah, 20 to 21 years, right right at that mark, and it was gosh, I mean. For me, it was about meeting people, and I met the owner of OFS when I started my career. He was on the board of trustees at a school that I went to in college. We kind of crossed paths, we briefly stayed in touch, and then I saw him later on in Barcelona believe it or not, a separate occasion and we ended up having this big lunch together, and I thought, wow, this seems like a really interesting industry, seems like a cool company. So what kept me in the industry, though, was, as I started, to go out and meet people that have been doing this a long time, especially in the office furniture world. I was meeting people that were 35, 40 years into their career, and they were full of enthusiasm. 

They woke up hungry, excited, they were healthy, and they were wealthy too, and I was thinking you know, this isn't the typical image, coming out of college that I have for someone who's at the end of their career. You expect them to be, you know, tired and ready, you know, just ready to hang it up, and that was not at all the case and that to me was sort of that light bulb moment Like, hey, this is, this could be really good and I need to stick with this.

Sid:  

So what was like the first thing you did? What was your first role in the industry?

Doug: 

I think always think this is very interesting how we got our start in the industry. Yeah, outside of being a trainee. Do you remember it was?

Sid: 

20 years ago.

Doug: 

I was on the product development side for the very early part of my career. That was probably the earliest chunk and I stayed there for a while. I did things from supply chain to product development and design work and working with product designers as sort of a liaison to our engineers, and that was it. A lot of it was just project management and hustle and learning. What was your degree in college? Fran Economics Totally unrelated. What was your degree in college, Brian Economics.

Sid:  

Totally unrelated. Okay, Economics, office furniture. Mine was in business communications, or actually it was technically called business communications but it was really math communications, which is interesting because mass communications when I went it was not what I thought it was, but it was radio, television, media marketing. And I mean I got a school and started selling office furniture for a school supply company, but now I'm a podcaster behind the mic, so it's a little bit like full circle here. My degree's in mass communication, which is radio, television, and now here I am in the newest form of mass communication. That's really cool. And now here I am in the newest form of mass communication. 

That's really cool. So, Doug, when you think back about your journey in the industry, like what's been the best part of working in the industry, what have you loved the most? 

Doug: 

Oh, wow. There's kind of a there's a part that's sort of, I think, natural to me, which is, you know, I love people and I could be doing a lot of different things and as long as I had an opportunity to meet new people kind of like when you described what it's like to be a podcaster, it's so much of it is a selfish endeavor to learn and grow and meet others so that I could find anywhere. But what is specific to this industry? I think, anywhere. But what is specific to this industry, I think, is the level of creativity that I'm attracted to, where I really love the creative thinking, the imagination that goes into creating space, place and products, the imagination that you know you can build these tangible things that you know some people grow to love and then you meet others and they're like oh, that's my favorite, that's my favorite chair, or I love my office, or you know even the way something is specified, someone might love that, and sort of the you know, the opportunity to create those kinds of moments. That's really cool, right.

Sid:

So you come in project management, make your way into product design, working with designers and helping inform decisions about what is being put out by a company. And now you come to the dark side. Yeah, let's be real, it's the dark side. Everybody wants to hate on salespeople, but welcome to the dark side, Mr, VP of Sales. So how do you feel about being I'm joking a?

Doug: 

little bit right. 

But how do connotation or association with the dark side I think it's really sort of the old idea of just pushing something you know, or convincing, or influencing, and I think that both sales and marketing have sort of evolved so much to where there's a new way of acting. 

And I think there's also this idea where sales is, you know, it's not just so one-dimensional anymore, it's really about deep understanding before anything else. 

And I started kind of understanding the role of questions and how important questions are, and it's kind of a two-way street. So, like in sales, it's not just the importance of the questions I'm asking, but it's also what are the questions that the client's asking. Because I actually think the questions that others ask you give you more insight into what they care about than anything. And so, like really paying close attention to your questions and the questions you're getting asked, and then when you start to do that, you can start to uncover ways that you can help. And then the other thing is also, when you realize that the world is just so darn big and you're not so possessive of everything, you let go a little bit and you realize, hey, if you really believe in something and you have great products, you don't have to be the solution for everything. And that takes some of the pressure off of what people think of when they think of sales.

Sid: 

Yeah, it's. It is interesting to see and think about how the world of sales has evolved over the years, right, and you brought up something that I think is still a skill that people need to work on, and there's two skills there. It's the art of asking questions, and asking open-ended questions, and not yes and no questions. Right, you want to ask an open-ended question. You don't want to ask how many chairs do you want to buy? I want to buy 20, right? You don't ask that question. You get a yes or no or a simple one-word answer, right? You want to ask a question along the lines of well, what's going on in your business that is requiring you to purchase new seating? Like, what's happening in your business? Completely different question. You're going to get to a lot more information from that one, so that's really important.

But the part that I think is the more important skillset, Doug, that people are not focused on truly learning is listening, I agree, and listening with all it's called intuitive listening, right, or active listening, where you listen with all of your senses, your eyes, your ears, your smells. I mean, you're watching body language, right? And in order to do that, what do we have to be? We have to be present in the moment. In order to be present, that means this little gadget, this phone that I'm holding in my hand. For those of you watching on YouTube, I hold up. My phone has to be turned off or flipped over and non-silent on the other side, because it's a huge distraction and the minute it distracts you, then you lose your focus, you lose your presence and now you're not listening anymore.

Doug: 

I agree. I think listening is so important. It's about hearing what they're not saying. You know everyone is selling. Even if you're not selling a thing, you have ideas and you're trying to gain understanding of you know and acceptance. 

There's a there was a woman that I interviewed named was Hillary green and she was the head of workplace change for a Scotia bank and they were going through major changes, uh, where they were reducing the number of private offices. It's the changes that so many companies go through. She was explaining the change to an associate and she was saying well, you know, you're going to get all these extra amenities now and there's additional flexibility and there's all these positive things Like why is it that you're still so upset about losing this private office? And he was like because my parents will never get to see me in here, and this is like, you know, like a 30-year-old man, and you hear that and you're like, wow, that really you start to understand, like all these emotions or feelings that maybe you overlook unless you actually dig a little deeper and you start to and you really try to understand, and so that's. You know, that's all part of what sales is too.

Sid: 

Yeah, and understanding what those needs are and how to help really solve that need for the customers. So I ask you, what do you love most about your job? What's the most challenging part about it? Oh time.

Doug: 

It's time, it's without question. You know there's just so much you want to do and there's so many people I want to see and so many places I want to visit and just to, and I and there's, and you know what happens, Sid, you, you build up friendships over time and they're all so important and you just wish you had time to see everyone and you know, and time to do all the things you want to do. So prioritization is sort of like the thing you're forced to do, and so that's hard. That's it. Yeah, if only I didn't have to sleep, it'd be great. 

Oh, my goodness Doug, do you have children?

Doug: 

I do. I have three. I have a 16, one that is 13, and then one that turns 12 here this month.

Sid:  

Oh, so you're about to have a house full of teenagers, or almost a house full of teenagers.

Doug: 

Yeah, yeah, pretty much. It's already basically that way. I'll say a prayer for you, yeah. Boys, girls all girls, all boys. I have two girls and the youngest is a boy.

Sid: 

Thank, goodness for that.

Doug: 13:17 

Yeah, honestly, they're wonderful, like they are not. You know, they're not difficult, they're just fantastic and I'm lucky in that way. I've heard the stories

Sid:

Enjoy them while they're there, because one day they're not going to be here and you're really going to miss them. And I joke about mine and they're amazing they're both off at school, one about to go to graduate school, and so, yeah, you miss them. The house that was the worst part for me was how quiet the house was.

Doug: 

Oh, I can imagine,

Sid:

yeah, because there's no door slamming or people coming in at three. I mean, I could have set my watch at three o'clock. I would hear a door slam right and banging around, you know when that's not there anymore. It's really weird, like oh it's quiet.

Doug: 

It would be weird, you know. Know, my wife and I have a great friendship, so you know there's, you know there's things we did before the kids that we haven't done in a while. You know, and just in terms of like taking, you know, we used to go travel places sort of on a whim, and all that just came to a screeching halt, and so you know there's things to look forward to also with with her.

Sid: 

Yeah, 100%  now you're doing all this travel, so you're racking up all these points and all these miles. So family travel, you can go, stay at really great places, fly for free. I mean, there are some perks to being a road warrior. How are you enjoying being out there and in the field and seeing and meeting people and learning? You got to be learning a lot about what's happening in the market today.

Doug: 

Oh, that's my objective is to inspire others around what I'm so passionate about and then also to learn really, and that's it. I'm not out, quote unquote selling as much, as I am trying to build knowledge and then just share enthusiasm. There was an old expression sales is a transfer of enthusiasm. I've heard that. I love it, and it's so true because, you know, in our industry, because I know there's a lot of salespeople listening to you, sid, and in our industry, a lot of times you're not talking directly to the decision maker, but you're talking to someone who then has to pitch your idea, or you're talking to someone who has to talk to someone who then has to pitch your idea, or you're talking to someone who has to talk to someone who is going to pitch their idea. You know. So you really have to be able to help people see all the reasons that you love what you do, and so that's it.

Sid:  

I think authentic enthusiasm is really what's important about that, because the fake enthusiasm people can see through it. If you're really excited about a product and you really love a product or the space you're creating, whatever it actually really comes through naturally rather than faking it, because I think that's when you really start to lose people is just my opinion about that.

Doug:  

I agree, Sid, you really start to lose people. It's just my opinion about that. I agree, Sid. If I could even share a little bit about when I look back at the 200-some interviews that I did Adana in my previous podcast, when I look at who were the most captivating interviews, it all came down to audible passion and it was sort of this aha moment of when people prepare for an interview or prepare for a presentation. Let's say, if you're a salesperson, you could spend all your time focusing on the content when really the most important thing you could do is just be in a good mood and fall in love with your work and fall in love with your purpose. And if you don't have a purpose, well then start there, understand your purpose, and when you do that, you really speak from the heart and it changes everything. It changes the way you communicate, it changes your sense of confidence, and so that is the number one factor I think in giving a great interview is do you care about what you're saying?

Sid:  

Yeah, is it important to you, right? So I have a podcast editor producer friend who was sharing a story recently about how he had got a new client. They had sent him a trailer for their episode to listen to and ask for feedback. It was impromptu recorded on their phone, not a professionally done trailer, but just kind of get the feel for it and ask for feedback. And his feedback was you need to smile while you're talking, because you can Google the benefits of smiling and there's like 15 benefits of smiling. One of them is exactly what you said is it puts you in a good mood right, it helps you be in a good mood, and so it's also like stress reduction, all these other things. And that was his only feedback. Just smile, record it again but next time smile, and I think it kind of goes to that point of what you're talking about.

Doug:

I love it and I'm going to take the smile even a step further. I'm passionate about the subject, so there's even a little personal brand hack here that happens. So when you smile, not only does it affect you, but the instant reaction, it's human nature. When you see someone smile, smile back right. Most of the time when that happens, the other person doesn't even know they're smiling, but it's that instinctual that when you see someone smile, you smile back.

So there was this all hands call that we would have, and there was a young woman who would get on and share case studies and this was like kind of during COVID time, and you know, there was all these screens lit up, all these videos. She would, you know, she'd get called on to present her case study. The first thing she'd do is she would smile really big and she would say, you know, like, hi, everyone and I would watch the rest of the screen and everybody's ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding. Everyone was lighting up, smiling, and then all of a sudden people are saying, hey, you know that one girl who does the case studies. Can she talk a little more Can are saying hey, you know that one girl who does the case studies, can she talk a little more? How do we get her more into the call? That's a great hack, and so to not use that as a miss.

Sid: 

Well, I think people miss out on the understanding of the fact that your energy that you put out into the world at the moment that you're doing it, is contagious. It's contagious If you have positive, upbeat energy, because you're smiling, doing things, you're feeling good. That's going to resonate. People are going to see that and they're going to emulate that. But just like the negative I mean, you do it in your negative and you're all being down and whatever, and you know, oh, the world hates me and that negative energy is coming out. You're going to project that on others and guess what? They're going to start acting like that Totally.

A long time ago, when I was doing my coaching certification, I learned about energy and energy leadership. We're not going to talk about all that because we've got to move on to office furniture, yeah, so what it was about was how, as human beings, the reframing that is so important because we get to choose how we show up. We get to choose how we show up and people I don't think people really understand that, but you get to choose. Like, if I were having a really bad day before this podcast episode, I would have gone outside, I would have walked with the dogs, I would have cleared my head.

I always give myself 15 minutes beforehand because that impacts the way I show up and if you go, if you're same thing about going into a sales call or picking up the phone to call a customer to deliver bad news, right, you got to tell them. The lead time's extended or whatever. The way you approach it with your energy and all that is going to impact how the customer receives it. So you got to do that like reset. You know what I mean that reset 

Doug: 

Totally, totally. And that's all about that preparation, which is, you know, like, if you get lost, spending all your time focusing on what you're going to say, you know you'd be better off spending your time on how you're going to say it.

Sid:  

That's right and we're going to. This is the last comment about that. If you know your stuff right, you don't really have to worry too much about what you're going to say, because you should know your stuff right and you should be able to answer almost any question if you know your stuff. So, Doug, you've been out in the wild traveling. What is the some of the? If there was like one or two top learnings that you've heard from customers about today's workspace or what some of their challenges are, what sticks out to you being the couple of things that you're hearing from people while you're traveling, what sticks out to you?

Doug:  

being the couple of things that you're hearing from people while you're traveling. Here's one that I think has come up, but it's only come up when I've done some deep digging and I don't hear about it, I don't see writing about it, but it's interesting to me and so I think others will find it interesting, which is, I don't think we can assume that people know how to use a workplace and so we hand over products and we hand over workplace design that have incredible thinking behind them, right, deep, deep thinking, but we don't always transfer, I think, the instructions, and I'll give an example. There is this vacuum mop kind of broom that I inherited. My parents were downsizing, moving into a senior living community, and they handed me this like Hoover vac that looks like it's from outer space, like it's insane. This thing, right, and I'm too intimidated to even use it and I know it would probably do a really good job cleaning my floors, but instead I just keep using, you know, a regular basic mop and I don't have the time to figure out how to use it.

I just I don't have the energy, and I think a little bit of workplace is that way where, if you look at how much workplace has changed. There's so many new kinds of products, there's so many new ways of working that, as product designers and as space designers, we've imagined and we've kind of put solutions forward, but that doesn't always make its way to the people that are using it, and so the really great point, that's that's one thing I think that we could all get better at, and you know, I even thought like I don't mean. Is this is as simple as you know, like giving more visual instruction to rooms, like if we're, if we want people to have areas where they can be more creative. You know, how can we show that this is your space to pack. You're empowered to move and use and create, rather than letting things just kind of sit in one spot?

Sid: 

So I think there's also another caveat there that I think is really important at least I think is why is it created this way? Like, not just what is it, how do you use it Right? How do you use this booth? How do you use this table? I mean, I would imagine unless you teach somebody they don't understand that at a high-discipline table, at least for 10 to 20 minutes every hour, they need to stand up for 10 or 20 minutes, right? They just say, oh, this is really cool, I got this thing that goes up and down. But tell them why, like, why do you have that? Because it's better for your health. It changes the way you breathe when you stand up. I mean, there's all these benefits. And, like the creative space you talked about, why was this created? So, is that incumbent upon us? Or is that the building owner, or is it the interior designer, or is it a collective?

Doug: 

I think it's collective. I think your point around why is super important, and I think we all need to get better at that. So, as product representatives or makers, we have to be able to communicate our why better, and that needs to find its way downstream. I think it makes total sense and I think it's a miss in our industry. It's not always a miss, but I think you know it's something that we can just get better at Continuous improvement, continuous improvement.

Sid: 

Yes, and you know, in the world today there's a lot of conversations with people a lot smarter than me about the future of work and hybrid work and this kind of work, and I'm not going to say they're arguing, but let's there. I believe they're having spirited debates, which I appreciate. There's demanding, like JP Morgan Chase saying everybody has to come back to work by this time. You have the federal government saying everybody, screw you, go home and we don't want you here anymore. And the other people are embracing hybrid, and then some people, so it's all over the board. And the other people are embracing hybrid, and then some people, so it's all over the board. And, as somebody that's been in the industry a really, really long time, what do you think the future of work is?

Doug: 

Wow, well, I love that question, I love talking about it. I have a couple comments. One I kind of feel like pre-pandemic there really wasn't a lot of angst around the subject of presence Yet I think that people were present the majority of the time. But if you looked at vacancy rates and like or vacancy rates, but if you looked at utilization space utilization we were probably in offices only utilizing 60% of workstations at a time. I mean, nobody was ever really at full space utilization every day anyway. So there was sort of a bit of hybrid flexibility and mobility that was sort of built in, and so I don't know that we need the sort of angst that we have right now or the extreme direction in one way or another.

 I think, without question, presence is important. Physical presence, I mean. I work remotely the majority of my time, but I do, you know, because I travel a lot. I do go into an office at least a couple times a month and it's super important for me. Me like I, without that connection. I wish I had more of it. To be honest, I wish I had more of it. You know, if I had that office in my backyard, I'd be using it a lot. Yeah, so I, I think it's, I think it's key, I I also think there's like there's this thing about the future of work that I don't want to say I'm worried about, but there's a.

There's this gap that I'm exploring, which is like, if you have technology and tools that are changing at this really fast rate, which is happening since the launch of chat, gpt it was happening before that, but this technology changes at this super exponential rate, yet culture changes in this sort of incremental pace what's starting to form is a gap between what's possible and what will actually do, and that, to me, is like really interesting and has big ramifications on the future of work, because I feel like what will be possible in five years is going to be amazing Culturally. What we'll adopt, it won't reach that. There may be, there'll be something that kind of gives us a punch or knocks us in a direction, but that gap is going to get bigger and bigger until something big happens and something changes and we get nudged up there. But that's something interesting. I'm trying to wrap my arms around.

Sid:  

Well, it's something now I'm going to pay attention to because I think it's a really great point, and I'm going to pay attention to that to see what I can learn about that right? So when you think about I mean we, as an industry, we need people in an office, I mean that's what we do, right. So when you think about I mean we, as an industry, we need people in an office, I mean that's what we do, right, is we furnish offices? So we need people in the building. 

But there's a lot of benefit to hybrid models. There's a lot of benefit to I talked about this before work-life integration or work-life harmony, because work and life don't balance. So in my opinion, there's no such thing as work-life balance. But I think that also as an industry, we also need to try to come up with new tools and or new products that support customers and people working in multiple locations, not just in the office, but not just at home either, and it's going to be interesting to see what people if people focus on this, and what they come up with. So do you have thoughts about that?

Doug: 

Yeah, I know a lot of people are focused on that. I agree, as an industry, of course, we want offices to flourish. I think they will.

 I think physical presence is paramount to creativity, to social growth and well-being, so I I I do think, though, that the, the office, is sort of like a tool, and we should treat it more like a tool, which is like hey, you're, you're a carpenter, and the office is your saw, but you know, you also have a hammer and a this and a that, you know, and it's like they're all part of tools that you need to get your best work done, and that's a great analogy, by the way, thank you, and I really feel like once we start seeing it that way, just kind of collectively, instead of a prescription or anything, we'll realize that you know, most of the time, we do need a saw.

You know like we're going to need that, but then there's other times where you go and you pick a different tool because it's what you need for the task at hand, and that's fine too. So I think things will level out. Obviously, digital presence is just going to be more and more important. So, yeah, you know, from a furniture solution standpoint, we're all wrapping our arms around that. You know, whether it's camera angles or you know there's a lot of factors at play there that are being explored.

Sid: 30:44 

Well, a minute ago you talked about this, but I'm curious as to your thoughts about AI in sales. Yeah, sure, not just in our industry, but in sales. How should salespeople, or should salespeople, be using AI? And if they should, how should they be using it in your opinion?

Doug: 

You know it's become so integral to my work, it's almost so fundamental that it's like, if you asked me to repeat the times I used AI, you know it would be like trying to remember when I drank water or took. You know, it's like I don't know, I just do it all the time. So, yeah, I think it's fundamental to anything and help you think through things. So you know whether it's understanding new ways to solve a problem. Maybe that problem is spatial in nature. Well, ai has the capability of doing that now too. Even just basic chat, gpt models.

 You know where I could load a floor plan and ask about a specific area of the floor plan and say you know, I'm not sure if this product makes sense for that. What you know, what could we do to make? So you can explore concepts, you can explore ideas around. You know, like, what are the values of a company and how, how well do our values align with those of the of the one where we're looking at and I don't know that it is. To me it's an I, it's like an idea board.

Sid:  

So you mentioned something that I don't think a lot of people understand is you can actually have a conversation with it. Oh, totally, you could brainstorm with it.

Doug:  

Oh yeah, so so.

Sid:  

You can set it up and say, hey, let's do this and it'll get. It can even ask you can like, interview you and ask you questions and take that information in, and it's really amazing. So you get. That was an example. Is there any other practical examples that you could give? And then I'd like for you to share what tool are you using the most?

Doug:  

I'm using chat, GPT the most, and and I'm I mean I there's practical life examples that can even go outside of sales. You know, like you can, just how you can interface with pictures really cleverly, but I have long drives. So for others who are in Texas, you know, like you said, you have long drives, I'm sure, and I'll put on voice and I'll have that conversation. You know, I'll just talk about a problem I'm having. You know, maybe it's a problem thinking through an incentive program and it's like you know how can I think about this differently? And if I don't like the answers, I'm gonna be like you know, I'm gonna say, just get way more creative, like you're not, you know, really challenge me here, it'll push, push deeper. And so I think, generally, once you start to interact and you start to have some home run questions that come up, then you start to realize that, oh my gosh, like this is a mountain of opportunity and I am only limited by the questions I'm asking. And then, once that starts to sink in, you start to realize how important question asking is as a skill and you say, well, if this is the future, if the future is less about answers you having the answers and it's more about well, the answers all exist. Every answer you can imagine in the world exists. Now it just comes down to how good are the questions you're asking, and so it's like if you have this huge rock and this rock is all the data Every time you ask a question, it's like you have a chisel and you swing at that rock.

Sometimes the chisel just bounces off, you know, and it's made nothing. And other times you've made a dent and then you've made a. You know a dent and then you've created eventually, over time, a sculpture which is like your final outcome. But it came through 30 really imaginative questions, wow, and so that's. That's kind of like the mindset shift. And the other thing that is a big mindset shift there's a practical advice around ai is that for those of us who grew up with google, the key to google was less is more. Like a few amount of very specific words would give you the best results, but as soon as you started filling it with you know more and more. It's like it got. You know it's harder and harder to find what you're looking for, and it's the opposite in the AI world. It's just like more is more. Give it as much context, as you can fill it up, you know, and ramble if you want and you'll be rewarded for that it's a great example and you're right Short was the way to go.

Sid:  

But I also think it's really important that I point out that I did not grow up with Google like Doug grew up with Google. I grew up with the Encyclopedia Britannica, where you had to make sure you had the right alphabet letter to look up what you wanted to look up. So I've come a long way. So I use two tools. I use ChatGPT a lot I pay for it and I use a tool called Perplexity AI. Have you used that? I haven't? No, so I use Perplexity as a research tool. So if I want to research something like, let's say, I want to research the I don't know I make up a topic, right, I could go into Perplexi, ask it this question and then it's going to take a few seconds. It's going to give me an answer, but what it's going to do is it's going to give me referenced research articles where it got that information from, and it gives you the number it's like highlighted in the answer and then you can click on it and it'll take you to the link where that information came from, and exactly in the article where they got it from. 

So talk about deep dive researching and I've talked about this before Like we should be researching. You should research your customer before you go call on your customer. You should research your designer. You should research your competitor right. You should research to see what's it's smart, and tools like Perplexity will dive really deep, and then, for me, I use ChatGPT to generate. So if I want to generate something let's say I'm working on a business plan for something I get research from Perplexity, then my thoughts put it in a document, upload the document to Chat, chat GPT, and say, okay, let's generate together a business plan or an executive summary or whatever around this, so you can make them work for you. I think a lot of people are scared of it, though.

Doug:  

Yeah, I think it's a combination of maybe being scared and the other is just developing habits. You know it takes a while. I mean, it's a fundamental change in how you think. It's not even just how you work, but how you think, where you just used to focus so much on answers and now you get to focus on questions. It's just a total flip.

Sid: 

So I have a book sitting up on my shelf over here. I haven't started reading it yet. It's by Warren Berger and it's called A More Beautiful Question. I love that, and there is really an art to asking questions. I've fumbled a little bit today in asking you questions, but there is really an art to asking questions.

Doug:  

You said you're a pro. You're a pro Sid.

Sid: 

And then the better you get at it. So I'm anxious to read that. There's four books before it, so it's kind of we got to wait a minute.

Doug:  

What did you say? It was called again.

Sid: 

A More Beautiful Question by Warren Berger.

Doug:  

I love that. So there's a person I follow. His name is Joe Ferraro and he has a podcast called 1% Better, and Joe is a master question asker. I actually had him on as a guest at one point because I felt like the importance of questions was critical to design, and he gave me examples of like how we can create more skillful questions, and one of them stuck with me. He said imagine you're talking to a college football coach and he said I could ask that person, well, what are you about? Or I could say, if I followed you around every day, what's a word I'd hear you say over and over again and it's like, oh man, you know, like one question. I mean, they both tell you the same thing, but one gives the person who's answering a way to think differently and give you a whole window into their life that if they just answered the question well, what are you about, they would miss that window. So it's like that to me was such a great example of how different questions can give you different windows.

Sid:  

But in essence it's a similar or almost the same question, right?

Doug:  

It is. It is Just, you know, phrased so differently. So shout out to Joe.

Sid: 

So I'm going to go. Thank you for giving me another podcast to listen to. There you go. Thank you for giving me another podcast to listen to. There you go. I have a lot of podcasts I listen to and a lot of books that I read, so you're feeding my problem. So thanks. I appreciate that. 

I want to talk for a minute about A&D. You've spent a lot of time in that world with working with A&D, doing research there. You know a lot of people. They are one of the most difficult influencers in our entire process to get in front of, and I've I asked this question a lot of people and I recently asked it of Cheryl Durst, who I hope will come on the show later this year to answer the question. But, as a furniture seller, how do we get in front of them today when you're told by some of the biggest ones well, you got once a year you can come and you can't come by yourself. You have to come with three other people and you only got 45 minutes, which means you basically get 15 minutes each and some people are going to be there and some people are going to be on the screen. How do we support that community and share our story, share our brand, share our products with them, when there appears to be this iron curtain around them?

Doug:

Sure, I'll give you some of what I would use. Number one, I think, is just be brief, be brilliant, like you don't have to use all your dynamite. On the first one, you know, I've always felt like it's okay to leave people wanting more. So when it's going really good, that's usually when I stop.

Sid: 

Okay, you leave them hanging.

Doug:  

Yeah, and I think that's okay because you know you'll see these people again at some point in time, you know. So be brief, be brilliant, I would say. A second one is don't show up empty-handed, and I don't mean that by bringing gifts or food or something, but it means, like you know, I am going to bring them something that they can use in their personal life and it's going to be some form of advice, research that I've done. So an example is I share some of my tips on powerful communication, tips I've learned from podcasting, right Stuff you already know, and I'll bring some of those and hand those over. Or, you know, my daughter-.

Sid:  

You put them on a card or something Like. You put them on a card, Okay.

Doug:  

Pete, yeah, and I'll explain what they are Pete, yeah, Pete, because I care about them. You know, I care about their career and their personal life and I am so happy to be a resource and to help. And I think that transfer of authentic enthusiasm and authentic care of you know, wanting to help is more important than anything you can share about a product you know. And then, of course, if you do share you know product and brand related things. It can't be boring. You know everybody's time is so precious and there's so many ways to be entertained. You know boredom is just inexcusable. So you got to. You know, if you can do all three of those things, if you can entertain and I bring humor into this too you know?

Sid:  

Yeah, but I say crack a joke, right. Yes, something. Yes to this too. Yeah, but I say crack a joke right?

Doug:  

Yes, Something.

Sid:  

Yes, yeah, I've heard people in the podcast community talk about how important it is, depending on what you're doing, to actually take an improv class as a podcaster, depending on what your content is. If you want to be a speaker, like a keynote speaker, taking an improv class is really good because you learn a little bit of that and it is. It is a gift to learn how to read body language and lean into it, like, lean into it and like I will stop and I can say Doug, I see that there's an expression on your face that you disagree with me. Would you mind sharing me with me why you disagree with me, like it's a gift to be able to, yeah, but it also makes sure people are awake.

 But you know what it's a gift to be able to? Yeah, but it also makes sure people are awake.

Doug:  

It's good. It's good, but you know what that's actually. I mean, that's a great observation, because when you ask people like what's one superpower that you could have, I bet one out of every five people is going to say I wish I could read minds and you know what you just you can't, but you got to watch.

Sid:  

By reading their body language Right and that's so true, that's super interesting.

Doug: 

So, in a way, you know, gosh, you have a superpower.

Sid:  

Oh, yeah, okay, yes, Doug, I have a superpower. So the next time you're in front of a group, you're going to think about this. You're going to be like oh, I can see that this person's body language is not really good. How do I lean into asking about it? Because they start to drift away. Right, you want to bring them into the conversation. So back to A and D. Sorry. 

You said be brief, be brilliant. I love that, especially the be brilliant part. Like really think about that. Don't show up empty-handed. And you were specific about it's not food, it's not a gift, and your idea is I'm going to assume it's a branded card that has points for better communication and it's so great because they're going to remember you gave that to them. It's likely going to sit on their desk or be in their top drawer, so that's really good. And then I think the most powerful thing you said was be a resource, not a salesperson. Be a resource and show you care about them and their pain. You've only got 15 minutes, maybe you've only got 30 minutes, but show that you are a valuable resource and listen. Those are good, Doug.

Doug:  

Thank you. So those are good, thank you. There's there's a one, one little phrase that, um, I think captures it, which is people care less about what you have to say and more about how interested you are in them, and so when you, when you can share and you have genuine interest in the person across from you, that that is the ultimate connection.

Sid: 

It is and you got to. I mean, yeah, we could. That's a whole other podcast episode, Doug. So, Doug, what would you say to new and young people in our industry? Because, as you know, we have a challenge of bringing new and young people into our industry and attracting them to what you and I both know is an amazing industry to work in. What advice would you give to them?

Doug:  

Well, in a way, I feel like I can relate, even though I'm 20 years in here, just having recently changed jobs. I feel like I kind of was the person coming in again that doesn't know where to go and who to talk to. And I would say that tightrope of knowing when to just listen and knowing when to speak up is important and to not try to be on one side or the other. But people want to hear what you have to say, and if you're at a place where they don't, that's probably not the right place. Amen to that. So you know, don't be afraid to speak up and, at the same time, listening as a skill is huge. It's just I think most people find themselves on the other side of it. You leave a place in the world where the only time you get to speak is when you're called on and you raise your hand, and now you're in a free-flowing sort of conversational environment and so just, speak up.

Sid: 

I love that. That's great advice. So we're coming to a time where we've got to wrap up this conversation, which I don't want to, because I got a whole more. I got a lot of things I want to talk to you about. But first off, what can we expect to see from JSI in June this year at officially for you guys design days for others of us at neocon? What can we expect to see from you guys? Well, you know I'm not gonna see you.

Doug: 

You'll see me, of course okay good, uh, I'll be there, and I mean you will have some so many of the JSI people there. But the most important thing you can expect to see I shouldn't say the most important, but one thing you can count on is this love what you do culture. You know, it's kind of funny. That tagline was given to us by accident. It was a team out of Gensler, dc that was doing one of our showrooms and this was, you know, long before I was there it's just at least five, six years ago and someone said in a call you guys, just love what you do. 

And then the, the CEO at the time just snagged it, hung on to it. There it is and all of a sudden it's showing up on the walls. We got t-shirts and yep and now, you know, it's a huge part of our mantra and our culture, which is you know this is it. You know this. It's a huge part of our mantra and our culture, which is you know this is it? You know this is our only trip around. You know the world and you know what's the point of all this if we don't love what we do, and so that is what we lean into.

Sid:  

Well, I'm excited about that. But I think what's interesting about that is it took somebody outside your industry, outside your business, to share with you what the passion is inside your business. It just goes back to listen and add you didn't even, likely didn't even ask, but he or she shared with you. You guys just love what you do and it stuck right. So there's a lot of lessons in that too. So no product. I can't even see any like go back to cover on any products, any secrets I'm not giving away.

Doug:  

I'm not giving away those secrets, but

Sid:

but yeah, we'll let you off the hook on that dude.

So, Doug, I'm just gonna speak for a vast part of our community. We've missed you. Thanks, you started a new job and had to dig into the new job, traveling, and totally understand and respect everything that you're doing, but we've missed you. So I have two questions. When are we going to start seeing you? More content come from Doug Shapiro. That's my first question.

Doug: 

It's absolutely going to happen, okay, and I'd love it to happen this spring. It's absolutely going to happen, okay, and I'd love it to happen this spring. It's hard, isn't it? It's hard.

Sid: 

It's hard. I respect the hard. I really do. I know how hard it is.

Doug:  

Yeah. Yeah, it's hard, but it's also. It's an important part of my own sense of fulfillment. I love that and I miss that too. So thanks for saying that, Sid.

Sid:  

Well, you have a really great personal brand in our industry. Now I'm going to tell a little story before I ask you the last question. So I see Mike Wagner post this post on LinkedIn big announcement tomorrow new VP coming aboard. And I read in the comments winky face, who could that be? Or something like that, or I wonder who that is. And I'm looking at that going what is what's? I'm trying to read between the lines. And then I just forgot about it and didn't read between the lines. That's really weird, Doug, commenting like that, like who could that be? And then the next day it was you, right, but we've missed your content. We'd love to see you back out there. I know I always enjoy consuming. I know there are a ton of other people that like to hear your voice. Oh, the whole point of that was you have a really strong personal brand, Doug. Thank you. So much. 

People respect you. People respect your voice and your thoughts about things. So yeah, come back. Come back, man. We'd love to have you back.

Doug:  

Yeah, you did it. You made a change and you stuck with it, and you know so. You set the bar there and I'd love to do that. It's so hard.

Sid: 

It's so hard. I mean, listen, I love this. I love, I like to talk to people all day long. Right, it's the getting here is the the hard part. I love the end result of my articles when I write my articles, but they're inspired so like I have to have a feeling about them, to sit down and write them and anyways it's just. Sometimes I stare at a blank page and like Rob's going to kill me if I don't get this article turned out. Kind, of.

Doug:  

Thing.

Sid:  

So my last question, Doug are we going to see you behind the mic again?

Doug:  

Oh yeah, you're the first person I'm telling. But, yeah, I'm going to do that. That's excellent, I'm going to jump back into it. Details will be dripped out later.

Sid:  

um, ladies and gentlemen, Doug Shapiro, coming back to the podcasting world, you heard it here first. Yes, on the trend report. Now you're gonna announce the podcast before this actually airs.

Doug:  

Yeah, I know so this may be, this may be late news may be, but yeah when I do get it going. Sid, it'd be fun to do another session with you.

Sid:  

It'd be great that you can ask me other questions.

Doug: 

I know I'm much more comfortable on that side of the microphone.

Sid:  

You did a great job, Doug. I cannot thank you enough for sticking with me until we got through all the issues and cancellations, to get here today and to record this. I'm excited for you. I'm excited for your journey at JSI. I look forward to seeing you in person at Design Days, officially for you guys, the second first, whatever the week, 9th, 10th, 11th, whatever it is of June. And with that, Doug, if our community would like to get in touch with you, what is the best way for them to do that?

Doug: 

I'm a LinkedIn guy, that's where to find me. Thanks for asking, Sid, and thanks for having me. I really appreciate it.

Sid:  

You're welcome. And just remember, guys, if you do reach out to Doug, if you're not already connected with him, be sure you let him know. You heard him here on the Trend Report and that's why you're reaching out. Thanks again, Doug and everybody listening today. I appreciate you hanging in there with us. We went a little long today, but go out there and make today great and we'll see you again in a couple of weeks. Take care everyone. Bye.