Preview Audio

Brian Piper: Now when we're talking about content marketing—that is content that's created, quality content that's created with the sole purpose of eventually convincing people to take some sort of action. Whether that is recognizing you as an expert and having them come find more of your content, or if that's driving them to sign up for your newsletter, subscribe to your podcast, or finally make a purchase to buy your products or services.

Episode Audio

Coach Sid Meadows: Hey, everybody. Welcome to this week's episode of the Trend Report. I'm glad you're joining me today for what I know is going to be a really fun and hopefully inspiring conversation for all of you today. I'm excited to welcome my guest today—Brian Piper. Hey, Brian, how are you? 

Brian: I'm great, Sid—thanks so much for having me on. 

Sid: So Brian, please take a moment and introduce yourself and tell everybody who you are and what you do. 

Brian: So currently, I am the Director of Content Strategy and Assessment at the University of Rochester in Rochester, New York. Most of my job revolves around looking at content performance data—figuring out what content is working, what content is not working, and how to make sure that we're putting the right content out on the right channels for the right audience. 

I also work across the entire institution. I started out just in the communications department, and things went so well that now they've got me working across the entire institution. I also do consulting for other higher ed institutions, 

Sid: you forgot something very important there and who you are and what you do, because you're actually now a best selling author… 

Brian: Yes, I am I the co-author of the second edition of “Epic Content Marketing.” My other co-author is Joe Pulizzi, who wrote the first edition of that book 10 years ago. 

Sid: which is why the title of this episode is called Epic Content, because I want to talk about what is epic content. But before we dive into that, I would love to know how you got into the world of content creation. Because it's not necessarily something, especially people in our age bracket, I'm dating you, I think a little bit anyways, that say, Hey, I'm gonna create content. So how did you actually get into the world of content creation or content marketing? 

Brian: Yeah, well, I was a web developer, like out of college and spent years doing that was wasn't really very talented at it, or very happy doing it, they usually would put me on, you know, updating the content on the website and optimizing it for search, you know, back in 1996, we called it web positioning. And now everybody knows it as SEO is search engine optimization. So I did that, for years, worked for a variety of different companies worked at an ad agency as their web manager. So got into marketing kind of understood the principles of marketing. And then in 2014, I read the first edition of Epic Content Marketing. And it's like, wow, you, you can sell things by telling stories, you can give away content to people to help them solve their problems, and answer the questions that they have. And just by doing that, you can bring them into your community and set yourself up as a trusted expert. So that then when they have to make a decision about what services to use, or what products to buy, they know that you're you're an expert, and they can come to you and trust the information that you're going to give them. So, you know, that changed my entire process. I was incredibly inspired by that book. And within the first week after reading that, I went right down to our marketing department and I told the new vice president of marketing that she needed to hire me as a digital marketing manager because I I couldn't say content marketing managers are no one knew what that was 10 years ago. So she did gave me a chance. And within the first year, we doubled our search traffic to our website and increased our sales and conversion rate. And you know, that went on. I worked there for four more years. And that's what got me into my work at the University. 

Sid: Okay, awesome. So it's kind of by accident, all basically inspired by a book that you read, inspired by one book. Yep. Now you're the co author of the second edition of that book. So obviously, along the way, you met Joe and got to know him. And I've heard the story of how you kept pestering him about writing another book, ready? What are you going to update it? What are you going to update it? And I think, Well, you're a convention somewhere, something he goes, I'll update it, if you write it with me. 

Brian: That's right. And at first, I thought he was, you know, just kind of joking. offhanded comment, and I went home and thought about it. I was like, this is a golden opportunity, I have to at least see if he was serious. I reached out to him the next day. And I was like, if you're serious, I will absolutely do this. And he said, Well, it's a lot of work, you're gonna do the heavy lifting? And I said, Yes, absolutely. So it was a great, great project and learned a ton along the way. Even though I had been doing this for 10 years already, I was surprised at how much there was behind the scenes and new ideas that other people that I interviewed other people that I used for the case studies talked about, and you know, it was it was a fantastic experience. 

Sid: So what I find interesting about this is, you read a book that inspired you. And from that book, you took action that led you to a new career. And then you learned you grew and that led you to the current position that you're in today, that led you to being a co author in this book and talk about life's journey, and how life's journey, you never know where it's going to take you or what is going to be maybe the best laid plans. But when things are in front of you, and these were things that were laying in front of you that you just took opportunity or took the opportunity, I think it's fantastic story of that evolution, because you picked up that book. 

Brian: Yeah. And it all comes down to you know, pursuing those opportunities. And I see it all the time with content, where people put out a piece of content, and they just leave it alone and hope that it's going to keep working. And without knowing what opportunities your content can create for you. You don't know what what new content you should create or what old content you should go back and reshare and re optimize. So it's all about pursuing those opportunities, and always keeping your eyes open for the next door that will open for you. 

Sid: So I want to dive in here to a couple of the things that you had just said. But first off, let's talk about content. What is content? Can you define it for the people that are joining us today? 

Brian: Yeah, I mean, all of us are content creators. I mean, you know, my stepmother is a content creator, she puts out content, she puts out posts on Facebook, you know, she goes out and she even sending an email, I mean, anything you create that has, you know, original thought that you're going to share with people, that's content. 

Now, when we're talking about content marketing, that is content that's created quality content that's created with the sole purpose of eventually convincing people to take some sort of action, whether that is, you know, just recognizing you as an expert and having them come find more of your content, or if that's driving them to sign up for your newsletter, or subscribe to your podcast, or you know, to finally make a purchase, buy some of your products or services. 

Sid: Okay, so um, break that down for just a minute. You're saying that we're all content creators in some form or another if we're posting on social media, whether it's LinkedIn, or our Facebook, or Instagram or wherever, if we post something, we're creating content. And one of the key terms there you use was original thoughts. 

Brian: So it's what we're thinking in that moment. And sometimes these are political, sometimes they're family, sometimes they're spiritual, sometimes they're business, but you're sharing your original thoughts about something at but then the distinction that you drew was content marketing, in that's when you're doing it. But then you're asking for you're putting in a call to action to get the person who's consuming the content, who's following you or discovers you on any of these platforms to take action, whether that's buy my books, subscribe to my email newsletter, follow me whatever it is, you're asking them to take action and that's when it becomes content marketing. 

So now, you laid out in the beginning, a quick little story for us, which I think is very appropriate because this is what we're doing today is a little bit of storytelling and taking people on a journey of you, but also learning from you about the things that you've In doing, and you took us on a little bit of a journey in telling us the story about what you should be doing, and what you discovered, which is telling stories that you could have a job that told stories that solved people's problems. And that allowed you to become a trusted expert. And I thought that was a great, but you did that in like 45 seconds, I think told us all that. This a great example of a storytelling but also a great example of what you should be doing. 

So let's break each of these down for just a minute. 

What exactly is storytelling? 

Brian: Yep. So basically, I mean, humans love stories. We love to hear that, you know, the exposition, the setup, we want to get involved, we want to be brought into it, we want to be able to associate ourselves with somebody else with something that's going on. So being able to create a story, it doesn't always have to be, you know, a case study or a particular example of something. But just being able to let someone know that you understand the problems they're dealing with, you understand the questions that they're asking and why they're dealing with those questions. So we have a case study in the book, river pools and spas. So they were a company that installed fiberglass pools. So that's all they did, they installed pools. And you know, back in 2009 session, they weren't able to sell any pools, people that had ordered pools the year before we're pulling out, they almost had to close the shop and shut down. And so the owner of that company, Marcus Sheridan decided that he was going to go to their website, and just put down all the questions that people had ever asked him about installing pools. And then he was going to put down the answers to those questions and let people know that he understood why they were having these problems and what they didn't understand about that particular issue that they were trying to solve. He just put that information out there for people. And people started coming to his website when they were doing research about buying pools. Why are pool is so expensive? And what's the cost? And what am I spending my money on? answered all of those questions. And now they are one of the largest manufacturers of fiberglass pool inserts in the world. And Marcus Sheridan is a consultant that teaches people how to do content marketing. Wow. All because he started answering questions, answering questions, telling stories about you know, understanding people's problems and concerns. Well, you said it perfectly. People identify with stories. And stories don't have to be emotional, that pull at your heartstrings. They can be I mean all different types of stories. And Watson, we think about a story, think about how it makes us feel. And that's really what the point of a story is. But that doesn't always have to be sad or emotional, right. And it can be fun, you can laugh, you can play but you're going to remember the story, because of the way that it makes you feel. And so telling the story is really, really important. But it also is important to do the second thing that you talked about, which is through your storytelling, how do you solve your ideal customer or your customers problem. And so this in the office furniture industry is something that I believe is a huge hurdle for us in understanding how a task chair or a desk or a task light or a panel system or phone booth. How that solves someone's problem. So how do we go about identifying the problems that we solve when we sell such a physical object, like office furniture? Well, I mean, the example that we just talked about is they were selling, they were selling pools. Now, people buy all sorts of different pools, right? They have all sorts of different projects that they have in mind, they have all sorts of different installation issues. It's the same with office furniture, people have different office setups, they need different solutions based on their particular you know how many people they have, what their setup is, what the ergonomic design is that they're looking for, they'll be able to understand those problems and you know, take every question that you have been asked, and while you're selling furniture to people, and think about who are all the different people who are going to be asking this question, really understanding your customer is one of the foundational elements of content marketing, you have to know your customer, you have to know your business strategy. Are you just trying to sell more furniture as much as you can? Or are you trying to sell specific pieces that you know have particular needs? Or do you focus on a specific niche? Are you just selling to, you know, dentist's office or professionals or are you selling to schools or you know, it depends on what the different need is, Will will drive what content you should Be creative, because you want to make sure your content that you're putting out there you're putting your time into is reaching the right audience. Because I mean, it's great if you go out and create a bunch of content and all sorts of people come and consume it. But if that doesn't relate to your end business goal, to your strategic goals, to the products that you sell, and your particular area of focus, and you're wasting your time. So this is where I think we need to resin industry really understanding. 

Sid: First off, Brian, you did a great job answering that question for somebody that knows nothing about office furniture, and is not in the office furniture industry. So I really appreciate that you're responding to me putting you on the spot like that. But what I see is the biggest problem is when it relates to content, that all we do is talk about our product, we talk about the product itself, we talk about the features and the benefits of the product. And you know, we'll just pick on a test here for a second, we'll talk about all the features of attached here, the type of back that it has adjustable arms and the type of casters and how high the mechanism goes and all this kind of stuff and of the ergonomic benefits of it. And that's all we see is this picture, or this video of the product and all these facts about the product. And then when I go and I, you know, look around or Snoop if you will, and I see who's commenting and who's liking and who's reposting that content. It's all the employees are salespeople that work there. And there's no engagement, true engagement outside of your organization. So talk to me a minute about why that is and why product first is not the right solution. Because your customers don't care about your product, they care about how you can solve their problems. So instead of saying, Our chairs are ergonomic, and they're fully adjustable, say, do you have back pain, maybe it's your office chair, here's the you know, office chair that helps people with back pains, here's a person who's one of our customers already who had back pain, and now they're using this chair and they don't have back pain and talk about them, feature your customers meet your the people whose problems you've already solved and talk about how you help them, find the right solution for them. And now, not only does your new customer recognize that you might be able to solve their problem, but they recognize that you care about them, not just the sale. And that's so key. And that's one of the biggest problems in brands is that they're all about, you know, the features and the product itself. And you know, no one cares about your widget, they care about how your widget will help them fix their problems, you know, create a solution custom to them. 

Brian: So a few years ago, up next, you know, a year last year, I was involved with a large group setting and in and I've said this before this, but there's about 5075 people in this group setting and I was speaking in front of the group, we were talking about content. And my challenge to them was and this is what I said to them, and I still say it to this day, sell your product without selling your product. And you do that by what you just described, which is telling a story of how your product solves a problem, in this case, the chair and back pain and how it solves someone's problem, which also leads to increased productivity, better employee health and wellness, which also leads to the business's reduction in in in health expenses and workman's comp. And there's so many ripple effects here that go into play with this. And we need to talk about all those things. But yeah, we talk about product first. But when you do it the way you described it, then you become the last component of this, the trusted expert, where people come to you for seeking information. Yeah, and you have to be, you have to be willing to accept the fact that people may come to you and by reading your content, they may decide that your chair isn't the right solution for them at that time. But the next time they come shopping for a desk or a lamp, they're going to be like, Oh, I'm gonna go back to that site because I had I found great information that really helped me find the right solution for me. I'm going to go back to them because I trust them to help me find the right solution again. Oh, and look at that this time, it is their product. And what happens when they come to you? 

Sid: Brian, “when they come to you?” What is the “where” when you say they are coming “to you”? Coming to where? Where is that home base we are coming to? 

Brian: So we one of the things we talked about in the book is rented land versus own land. So own land is things like your your website, your blog, your newsletter, someplace where you have control of the distribution, you be you are able to gather information, first party data that you can collect email addresses, that sort of thing from your customer. Now rented land or things things like social media channels, you know, where you don't really have any control over the distribution, not even control over your account over the data. So we tell people focus on your own land. Now, use all that rented land for most there, sell there, but you want to eventually drive people back to either your website more, sign up for your newsletter, or, you know, have them basically come back to some location that you have better control over and access over. And one of the other things we tell people is find one channel to start with, people want to create content, and they want to spread it everywhere. And they want to do the YouTube and the Tick Tock and all those different options. But but the key to be really good is to focus on one channel to start with, build your audience on that channel. And then you can go promote on other channels and drive people back to that content. And eventually, once you build a big enough following, then you can go add additional channels to target different audiences. But the most important thing is not to spread yourself too thin at first, because you're going to spend so much time creating content, not going to be able to look at whether or not that content is actually working. 

Sid: So, so good. Because I love the definition between rented and owned land very, very clear. We all understand what that means, right? And so if I'm on Instagram, and I'm talking on Instagram, and I'm doing reels, and I'm posting this on Instagram, I'm certainly looking at the vanity metrics, and I'm looking at who comments and who likes. But the real question is, you're hanging out with download 5000 people on rented land, how many of those 5000 people have come to your own land, which is your website, who have joined into your newsletter or opted in to learn more about you, or looked at your product? Great, great analogy. So what we should be doing is taking them and pushing them from social media to our website, so that we capture that data, so that we won't dive into this. But you know, if Tik Tok goes away, all these people are talking about this now what happens to their bazillions of followers when tick tock, if Tiktok goes away? And where do they go, you got to bring them into your own ecosystem. And when you get them there, you got to make sure that they have an amazing experience with you and your brand. So can you talk just for a minute about customer experience on your website, or on your own land for a minute, as a couple of key things you should be looking for pay attention to? 

Brian: Yeah, and that's, I mean, that goes right back to that customer first principle, when a customer comes to your website, you can't just be telling them everything about how great you are and what great products you have, you really need to be organized your website, structure your website, so that people can find the solutions to their problems when they get there. Have it you know, organize on don't know enough about office furniture doesn't matter principles are the same, the fit their needs, whether they're looking for specific products, you know, by category, you can do it that way or they're in a particular you know, if you have a particular niche of, you know, market that you deal with it and you sell to make sure they understand that right up front that this is what you you know, this is who you are, and you talk to them as people don't just try to sell them and push them and drive them to, you know, your biggest selling chair, because that's where you're going to get the most revenue. 

Really think about why they're coming to your site, what problems they're, you know, finding and asking you. And the easiest way to do that is just to talk to your customers, and find out how they're searching if, if you have you know, 100 really good customers tell 20 of them that you're going to send them you know, I don't know, $25 gift card or something like that. If they come take a survey, and then come talk to you one on one through zoom or some other channel and just ask him what you're looking for a new office furniture, what are you looking for? How are you finding that? What questions are you asking what problems do you have, specifically, and they'll appreciate that you really want to understand where they're coming from and what issues they're having. 

So one of the things I think that is important about this is, we haven't really talked much about it, but is the content that you create that's on your website, like writing blogs, and writing original articles and things of that nature that aren't just always sales first, right. It's also one of the things that helps you get discovered by other people. Because when you do a good job at writing, then Google picks that up and they see you as a trusted authority on the topic. And then they will start showing you in search results and sending people to your website to actually learn more or to engage more, and you got to make sure that the experience when the customer gets there is really really good. I'm gonna give you an example we're looking to buy an investment property, a small second home, my daughter's actually going to live in it while she's in college, right. And so I'm searching for real estate. 

So I land on this website, and I type in my search criteria and I see all these properties listed, I go to click on it, and I get a pop up, the only way that I can see the details of that house are when I create an account, and I give this person, everything about me, it not just my name, and then my email address, my phone number, it's all this stuff. And I just like I stopped, I'm not ready for that, I will be ready for that maybe in a couple of hours. But give me the freedom to do my own thing out here. And then if I've see something I want, then I'm going to reach out, but they put a gateway in front of me. 

Sid: Literally, Brian, I was so irritated yesterday, just because I wanted to search and this one particular site just kept stopping me every time. 

Brian: Yeah, we have a lot of conversations with brands, particularly but even in higher ed gating your content, especially that top of funnel content for those first customers that are coming into your website, initially, they're just gonna see that as intrusive, and you know, they're not they know why you're collecting that information, you're going to reach out to them, you're going to send them something you're going to email along with all this stuff that they don't want our email inboxes are busy enough as it is. 

Sid: Give away that content when they're actually ready to, you know, make a decision or reach out to you to ask a question about something, sure, then make them fill out a form so that they're gonna, they know they're gonna get valuable information. If you I hate signing up for something just to get past that gate, and then getting the content and going now this, this isn't what I wanted, this doesn't fit my needs. And now you've given them your email address, or you know, how you're gonna have to get calls from them or unsubscribe from their newsletters. And then yeah, absolutely. Just think about that experience for just a minute that I had. 

And how Brian responded to it is really, really important. We pay attention to how people feel and how we treat them. And this is a way of treating them when they're on our website. Right. But Brian, everything you've shared so far has been absolutely fantastic. I always learned from being around you and hearing you speak and but I want to shift the gear for just a minute, and then we'll talk about the book for a hot second. 

Okay. Let's talk about the people that are intimidated by creating content. And just like, oh, I can't put my face on video, or Oh, nobody's going to engage in this post. Or I have nothing to say nobody wants to hear what I have to say about something. What type of encouragement? Or what would you say to first time content creators or people that are just the lurkers that really need to get in the game? What would you say to them to help them take the first step forward?